ALI SHAHEED MUHAMMAD: What up, Mr. Staples?
VINCE STAPLES: How you doing, man?
MUHAMMAD: Good, man. Look — it's funny what you just did, cause — I'm going to fall in right now and say it — we been trying to get you here for two years
FRANNIE KELLEY: That's true
STAPLES: That makes no sense
MUHAMMAD: It makes perfect sense
STAPLES: I saw you in the last years I been here
MUHAMMAD: You came with Earl
KELLEY: Yeah. We wanted you solo
MUHAMMAD: But we wanted you solo. And I think that was — was that before Earl?
KELLEY: It was
MUHAMMAD: It was before Earl. So, you know, your manager's a good, long-time friend of mine. I did give him the press and, to speak up for him, he had a plan already. He explained that to me, and I respect his business, so I was like, "Cool." But I didn't think it would take two years to get you into the seat
But I will say you guys gave us First Listen, so that's a hell of a thank you
STAPLES: That was solely based off of you. I'm not playing. At all. We were in the office and Gabe was like, "Yeah, we're going to do this NPR First Listen thing." I was like, "Isn't that where Ali works?" They was like, "Yeah." And I said, "Alright."
MUHAMMAD: Thank you. That — well, I was just sitting around, watching all the other interviews go down. I was like, "OK. There has to be a reason." And that's a great — thank you
STAPLES: Don't thank me. I just — they need to thank you
KELLEY: Agreed
But, yeah. It's doing really well. Like, traffic-wise and engagement-wise and everything, so thank you
STAPLES: Yeah, it's great, man. I had a spike in pre-sales
KELLEY: Yeah, that's that NPR bump
STAPLES: NPR bump
KELLEY: It's real
STAPLES: Spike in any sales is crazy
KELLEY: I would like to start with Corey, actually, if that's possible. I read an interview with you where you said that you weren't even taking rapping seriously until you met him?
STAPLES: I mean, not really. It was like, after. I didn't really care when I met him either. It was after certain things unfolded. He was definitely the stepping stone as far as how — that led to that path. But I knew Corey for about year before I cared. Like year and a half before I was like, "Alright. I'ma do this." Then after two years, I was like, "Alright. I'ma stop playing."
KELLEY: OK. But how did you come to meet, then?
STAPLES: I was just around. A few people I was working with at the time — the most important would be Michael Uzowuru, great friend of mine — we were in the right place right time kind of situation. And one of Michael's, I guess, collaborators was telling Corey that he should work with Michael, and Corey started working with both of us at that point in time. And I kind of kept it going
KELLEY: And when you were talking to Corey about Vince, what was the — how did he describe him?
MUHAMMAD: How did I describe him?
KELLEY: No, how did Corey describe him to you?
MUHAMMAD: He didn't really. I just knew about Vince, and I knew that he was repping him. So I just wanted to have the conversation. He was really excited about Vince. And we talked about production as well, and he was saying that Vince was very specific and had a particular sound and an idea of what he wanted to do. And so that was as most as the conversation went on that
KELLEY: Yeah, you called me from the studio
MUHAMMAD: Yeah
KELLEY: I think you stepped outside and you were like, "Book this guy." And I was like, "I have been trying."
STAPLES: I'm sorry about that. It's not my fault
MUHAMMAD: No. It's —
STAPLES: I'm very very — when it's outside the numbers – you know, everyone around me tells me to make sure I don't spend my money, make sure nobody takes my money. So, you know, besides that, I have no mind for business at all when it comes to certain things. Like, I don't even have to pay attention to that stuff. I got — I'm lucky. Courtni and Corey call me in the morning like, "Hey, make sure you're here at this time."
MUHAMMAD: I find that — well, after being in it for so long, that there's two sides to that. That's a great thing, from a creative perspective, and from really having your own sort of landscape of where you want to go and what you want to do. And so you can really kind of have the experience, feel it out, know what you want to change, and not have all these other additional things you have to worry about. So —
STAPLES: Yeah, but you have to have the right people in place for that to work out cause —
MUHAMMAD: That's what I'm saying
STAPLES: — if you don't got the right people in place, you can, you know, get Little Richard-ed and all of those different things
MUHAMMAD: Well, it's two sides. Cause even in having the right people, then, at some times — if you leave it so much to them, at some point, there may be aspects that you miss out on, and it's not that they're not trying to do their thing — they are — but actually then —
STAPLES: They might not know. It's all about guidance. You gotta — teamwork makes the situation work
MUHAMMAD: You in good company. But you know that
STAPLES: Yeah, I be chilling, man
KELLEY: How do you know Corey? Why are you guys friends?
MUHAMMAD: Because of De La Soul
KELLEY: Can you tell why?
MUHAMMAD: I don't know. Can we — we have to bring Corey in. I feel kind of — like, we're talking about the man and he's just —
KELLEY: Making faces
MUHAMMAD: — having to take whatever is spoken on this microphone right now
KELLEY: Is he coming in?
MUHAMMAD: Yeah, he is
KELLEY: OK, cool
COREY SMYTH: It's so quiet in here
KELLEY: Cozy. It's another word for it. I don't think that mic is on, so if you guys could share
SMYTH: I'll sit next to Vince
KELLEY: Cool
SMYTH: Mr. Staples
KELLEY: Oh, it's on
STAPLES: It's on
KELLEY: You could be there
SMYTH: OK. At my own station. Hey, Ali
MUHAMMAD: What's up, Corey?
SMYTH: I'm good, man. I'm in a good space. Very happy to see you and happy to see that Vince is here. This has been good, man. It's been a long haul, but we're arriving
KELLEY: That's what it feels like
STAPLES: I'm just hanging out
SMYTH: He's hanging out at the right places, though. That's the best part
KELLEY: There's air conditioning, at least. So tell the story of how you guys started —
SMYTH: Met?
KELLEY: Yeah
SMYTH: I met Ali when I started working with De La Soul. Yeah. I was literally – what's that '90? Stakes Is High. Yeah. Stakes Is High album. Platinum Island. Right? Platinum. Right next door to Rawkus back in the day. I started managing De La Soul right around that time, and I was brought into the fold, through a very unique meeting. A Native Tongue meeting. I'll never forget that. A very big —
MUHAMMAD: Oh my god. Can we excuse Mr. Smyth?
SMYTH: A Native Tongue meeting, actually. But yeah, that was — it was very great. It was great to witness that moment
MUHAMMAD: Oh my god. I forgot about that
KELLEY: Wait. Why are you shaking your head? Have you heard this story?
STAPLES: I don't know what Native Tongue is. I know what De La Soul is because ofMF DOOM and Good Burger
KELLEY: OK
STAPLES: And Nike SB
MUHAMMAD: Wow
SMYTH: Yeah
KELLEY: So what was this meeting?
SMYTH: Oh, it's just, you know — cats are trying to make things happen at that point in time
KELLEY: Don't look at me like that
SMYTH: Then some things happened and some things didn't. But it was a big meeting. I'll never forget it
MUHAMMAD: I just forget things. So sometimes it's comforting forgetting things, and then —
SMYTH: Then Corey comes and brings it back up
MUHAMMAD: Like, I totally forgot about that meeting, and I'm like — because now he just opened up a whole memory bank over here that was just like, "Cool. We dealt with it." And now I'm like, "Oh, yeah. That was a very important meeting."
SMYTH: Yeah, it was crazy
KELLEY: Am I supposed to know what happened in this meeting?
MUHAMMAD: No one is
SMYTH: No one is. Yeah, I was about to say. No one's supposed to know what happened in that meeting. But the fact that I think that we were all young — that was the best thing for me. And I always tell Vince, him having me at this age versus the age I was there, I would've been different in that meeting. Like, I was kind of in awe, because I'm fans of all of them. But, you know, people are just trying to organize lives and business in a structure that's not really a structure at that moment, and it's unique
And part of the conversation earlier was about the creative and how Vince feels very free to be creative, which is a great thing, especially at 21, about to be 22. But there's a business side to it as Ali was saying that you have to start thinking about at some point in time. And he's there. He doesn't know he thinks about it that way cause he's very very particular about everything, so he's not going to ever be tilted, but that meeting was about creative with business
And it was just — I don't think the business ever grew. The Native Tongue business didn't grow, and it could've. It could've been something phenomenal. The fact that a 21-year-old kid who makes great music knows about the individuals but doesn't know about the collective speaks to the business that didn't happen
KELLEY: True
MUHAMMAD: My first conversation with you, I got the sense that you knew exactly what you were doing, and —
STAPLES: I didn't though. That's the crazy part about it
MUHAMMAD: Well, from the sense that — I think creatively you did. Creatively speaking, you gave me that impression, and very strong. And it seemed like you had certain ideas as to where you wanted to go. And maybe you don't see that, but I saw that clearly
STAPLES: How many years ago was that?
MUHAMMAD: Two
STAPLES: I had no idea what I was doing
KELLEY: Did you know what you didn't want to do though?
STAPLES: Yeah. Now see, that — I know what I didn't want to do, but I had no idea what I was doing
KELLEY: That's enough
STAPLES: I figured that out, like — what? October? Yeah, like September
KELLEY: Really?
STAPLES: I'm dead — I'm so serious
KELLEY: Why? Do you remember that moment?
STAPLES: Yeah
KELLEY: What happened?
STAPLES: You know how you looking for something you don't know what it is?
KELLEY: Mm-hmm
STAPLES: We found it
SMYTH: Mm-hmm
STAPLES: So, "Oh, that's — there it goes."
KELLEY: What was it?
STAPLES: It was in Toronto, and we met Hagler and he had the "Blue Suede" beat. I was like, "Oh, there it goes." And I was like, "We'll be done in like a week." And Corey's like, "You sure?" I was like, "Yeah." And then we were done in a week
YouTube
SMYTH: But knowing what you don't like is knowing what you kind of like, on the low
STAPLES: Yeah, now that you said that, I understand what you mean
SMYTH: It's the yin and yang
STAPLES: For sure didn't know what I was doing though. I wasn't really thinking about it at that time. I was trying to figure out other things. But, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense
KELLEY: What were trying to figure out?
STAPLES: Life, man. Life is the important part. This isn't the important part. The music will never matter without life. So life is the important part. That's the priority, and then music comes second. And then third comes the connection to music, and, you know, money and fame and fortune and notoriety is like 15th on that list or 20th or something, to me. That's the last thing I care about
KELLEY: But don't you think that life stuff — or have you noticed that when the life stuff gets correct, the music gets better?
STAPLES: No, cause music's never better or worse. It's just what it is at that time
KELLEY: OK
STAPLES: I don't think anything's good or bad. I refuse to label anything as good or bad cause early Vince Staples music, which I will never listen to, which I think is horrible. And I always thought that s*** was trash. And I was being lazy and taking advantage of situations and being like, "Hey, I can be over here and hang out and stay out of trouble if I just make some songs. OK, what's this song about? What's this beat called? OK. There you go. Leave me alone. I'm over here." That was the whole purpose of certain things at first. Thinking I was smarter than the cycle of things
But, I mean, if life is really really bad, does that mean the music's going to be really bad? If life's really really good, does that mean the music is really good? No. Some people make their best music when life is horrible. Some people lose sense of what their music was when their life starts to get better
MUHAMMAD: Just to build on this point, cause I had something written down, I wanted to give you some words: envy, hoarding, stick-ups, dubious, orphan, solitude — or you can trade that for deserted — famine, anger in the nation, and penitentiary maternity wards. What's good?
STAPLES: It all depends on the perspective. Cause if the penitentiary is wrong in the first place, then the maternity ward is pointless. But if the penitentiary is potentially good, then, of course, "They can have kids in here and it's safe and it's sanitary. That's a good thing." But why are they in there in the first place? So it could be good or bad
Stick-ups. OK. Does that person really need that money? Do you really need that money? Are their kids going to be OK if you take from them? Are your kids going to be OK if you don't take from them? It's all about — it's about which angle you look at things from. Nothing really good or bad. At the end of the day, we make all this stuff up
MUHAMMAD: I ask you those things because I feel that some of your music talks about just the embodiment of just those words, and it makes me wonder — and I keep landing to, "What's good?" So I like hearing you say you don't look at it as things are bad, things are good
STAPLES: It's all about circumstances. Circumstances dictate your set of values, your set of morals. So that's really what it comes down to. Cause with circumstances changes the way you look at things. Cause that's — that defines everything
MUHAMMAD: So with regards to the music then, the music at one point in time was a place where you can get an education. You can be inspired. You can be taught how to look at your life, regardless of the surroundings, being challenged or not, that you can have a sense of pride in yourself. And there seems to be kind of a feeling that's lost in the music. And I get the sense that you want to bring back something where people can really be taught from your music. Am I wrong?
STAPLES: No, that makes sense. That definitely makes sense. It's just — I mean, it all depends how you look at it. Like, that's definitely not what music is about anymore, at least from the way I do it. Like, the people in my genre, whatever they call those things now, everybody now getting some money and getting some attention. That's really what it's about for basically everybody
MUHAMMAD: What's it about for you?
STAPLES: I don't even know what it's about
MUHAMMAD: C'mon Vince
STAPLES: I'm serious. I will tell you — I literally don't think about those things. I don't think about those things. It's like, I'm here already. That's what I'ma do. I'ma stop? Quit? I don't like this stuff 90% of the time. Ask him. I do not have fun with this stuff. Cause you don't get — I like life
MUHAMMAD: Is there a purpose?
STAPLES: Everybody has a purpose. It's not up to you to define that though. So I'm figuring out as — we don't know. We know nothing. We don't know anything. We only know what we're told. The fact we all got convinced that money means something, just — it means everybody stupid, to me. Period. We're all stupid. Cause we let somebody make something and say, "This is what means everything." So what makes you think that we know about the world that's outside of us or what our life — we're not even thinking about life. We're paying taxes. For what? Why? Why do any of these things exist? You make a house to sell it, to get money that somebody makes in a office somewhere
MUHAMMAD: These are good questions. Good points
STAPLES: If you take money out of everything — if there's no such thing as money, what changes? We still have the animals to make the food. We still have the resources to build these things. We still have what we need to make these sciences and all this other type of stuff. This stuff is made up
MUHAMMAD: Nothing changes, I think, except for the higher consciousness of mankind, which we keep missing because we get stumped by that thing we focused on that that we think we supposed to be focused on. We're not reaching our higher —
STAPLES: So the fact that money and being popular and being better than the next person is what this world is based on — I don't — who cares? Like, if I don't — who cares about anything, if you're going to be 100% honest? No. You care about what benefits you the most. No matter what you do. But that's the way that we're made, and that's the way we were raised up, is to care about what benefits us the most. So when it comes to thinking of a — I don't — I try not to think about stuff like that. Cause it goes against what I know
MUHAMMAD: I respect that
STAPLES: Cause I know none of this matters at the end of the day. I know 90% — not even 90%. Probably, I want to say — it's a different time — half the people that listen to your music listen to it to say they listen to your music. For no other reason. To say, "Oh yeah, I like this." But why? What does it do for you? Half the people that buy your music do it to support you; half do it to say they did it so they're not deemed stealing, so they feel better about themselves; and most of the people that do listen your music steal it, but they love you to death. That doesn't make any sense to me. This whole ordeal doesn't make any sense to me
I read an article today that said "Vince Staples blah blah. While being on Def Jam Records, one must try to make radio records, and we see his two attempts on this song and that song." What does that even mean? What is the radio? That's somebody else playing a song. Why do you have to try to do that? What kind of sense does that make? That makes no sense
MUHAMMAD: Yeah, people just throw they own spin in life and stuff —
STAPLES: Which is why —
MUHAMMAD: — but that's not connected or based off of anything real
STAPLES: Exactly
MUHAMMAD: And that's what you're saying
STAPLES: What I'm saying is nothing matters at the end of the day to 90% of the people that walk the face of this earth. That's why you have the special ones, and they're crazy. When you think about somebody who's — it's funny. I was talking to — my girl's brother's autistic. And my brother, he's been on bed rest for probably about like 16, 17 — the majority of my life. And she was talking about mentally challenged people and how people feel bad for them. That's just always funny to me
Like, why do you feel bad for them? They don't have to deal with any of this s***. They're happy. They don't know about any of the things we have to deal with. They're living their life, smile on their face. When they're sad, they're sad; when they're happy, they're happy. It's often outweighed by the happiness. Why do we — we should feel bad for us
MUHAMMAD: No doubt
STAPLES: But it's a sense of — we've been so — we so lost. We don't know what any of this stuff means. And we don't even care to find out
MUHAMMAD: Some of us don't. I care
STAPLES: But you gotta think about it. Majority rules. That's the life that we set up here. That's why we vote
MUHAMMAD: You got a point, based off that perspective. The majority that does rule doesn't rule me, so that's my perspective
STAPLES: Exactly. But look — it's back to what you say about right or wrong. It's right; it's wrong, the reality. The fact that we even dabble in right or wrong is wrong in the first place. But is it wrong, cause it brings order. Is order right? Are we supposed to have order? And why does no one focus on the reality of the situation?
If you look at the news, all these people dying and how things are happening, it's never based on the reality of the situation. It's based on what people think are right and wrong. All that is based on opinion. When things are based on opinion, the popular opinion wins. That's what it's called the popular opinion. So in that sense, we're always going to be f*****. Cause all you need to do — Hitler got people to think he was right
MUHAMMAD: Absolutely
STAPLES: Do you think — no one thought that they were wrong. That's the crazy part about — no one thought that they were wrong. The terrorists that handled 9/11, the Boston bombing, these people never think they're wrong. We don't think we're wrong when we go blow up elementary schools looking for one person, to spare lives of soldiers. So we throw a bomb in a school because somebody's hiding in it. Not thinking about the lives of those people that — but it's right in our — it's right to us. But it's wrong to them. What kind of sense does that s*** make?
MUHAMMAD: It doesn't make sense, but at the same time, these things, I think, are done to make us reflect. And if you take a moment to reflect, that's all you need to then start the questioning to try to be on that journey to figure out what the purpose is
STAPLES: OK. But —
MUHAMMAD: But most people don't take that moment
STAPLES: Because when do you have that moment?
MUHAMMAD: Well, nowadays, yeah. In this century, with all this —
STAPLES: It's not even that. It's past that. Before that. You wake up. You see your mom go to work. You go to school. You come home. You hate your life some more. You go back to school. Your friend has a birthday party. His house is bigger than yours. Now he can never come to your house, cause you live in the back of your aunt's house, across the street from the oil refinery in a gang-infested neighborhood where everyone is related to you. So you're embarrassed about that. You go home, do your homework
Your mom comes home, makes nothing, tries to figure out how to make you not realize that you're poor. Because where I live at, the state that I live at, an apartment in a bad neighborhood is $800, $900 a month, for one bedroom. That's a lot of money if you getting paid minimum wage. But your kid has to have the nice shoes cause he has to deal with the other kids, or he gotta go to the school where they have the uniforms. But you have to pay for that, too, so you're not really running from anything
So you're spending your whole life trying to catch up to something that you don't know why you're chasing and trying to disguise your kids from something that they already noticed, based on their own interactions. That's the beginning of life. That's before you have bills — as a kid — and before you have to pay taxes. That's before you're elderly and you can't take care of your own self. So my question is, with all these things in your way before the phones, before interactions with other people that could be negative, you trying to scramble for no apparent reason. When do you have time to sit down and think? This is before the Internet
MUHAMMAD: I think that depends on — based off of that environment you describe, that depends on who else is around you in that environment. Because if it's just completely like that, then you don't have time. But if you have someone who can just say, "You know what? Let me just pull you over here and talk to you," even if I talk to you for five minutes to give you a vision of the world that doesn't exist in front of you. It's not tangible to you, but just enough to open up your mind to that. If you don't have that, then you're going to be behind, but if you have someone to do that, then your journey then shifts, and you make the time. You'll find the time
STAPLES: That's less than the half —
SMYTH: A majority of the kids don't get that. So that's —
STAPLES: That's not real. You're supposed to get that in school, but when you open up that history book, you're a slave
SMYTH: You're supposed to just get that in general, in life
MUHAMMAD: Before school
SMYTH: Yeah, before school
STAPLES: Yeah, but that's not happening
SMYTH: Correct
STAPLES: It's like I said, it's right, wrong, reality — the reality of the situation is —
MUHAMMAD: Which brings me to —
SMYTH: Your record
MUHAMMAD: Your record. When you have a song like "Lift Me Up," who are you talking to?
KELLEY: Wait. Can I just clarify one thing? Did you or did you not have that person?
STAPLES: Never in my life
KELLEY: So he did it without that person
SMYTH: No, he had those people. I mean, listen. I'm not going to try to disagree with him in his interview, but there are people that — he pays attention. Whether they were speaking directly to him? He pays enough attention that he was able to grab a lot more. I always say — I said to my mother, I was like, "Vince is a dropout of high school. You would never tell me if he went through — if someone had taken the time at those formative years to give him that type of attention, where he would've been." I'm glad he's here, cause it's all with purpose. But he clearly could've done anything with the proper focus
MUHAMMAD: I think his purpose was — how do I say this? You're supposed — your journey, whatever it is, it's a full purpose
SMYTH: Completely
MUHAMMAD: And it will be fulfilled. And when I first met you, I felt that. And even something that you said in one of your other interviews, you said you don't want to be rapping when you're 45. And based off of your words, I felt that you wanted to have a relationship and an influence with children for the next generation of people who didn't have what you did not have. Likewise, where you can offer them that thing that you did not have. So that gave me a sense that somewhere in your journey there was anointing. So when you say you didn't have that, probably didn't, but something along the line, I think, planted a seed in giving you a vision
STAPLES: And I'ma tell you what that was. At a very young age, I could look at people and tell that everyone was, in a sense, worthless in their own mind. And you couldn't trust anyone. No one was good. My mom wasn't good. My dad wasn't good. My grandmother wasn't good. My grandfather was good to me, but if you ask around, he done some stuff. No one's good or bad. And then I understood it was a trick. I knew we was being f****** tricked. At a young age
So it's like, I didn't f*** with anybody. I don't talk to any of my family members, and I've never liked them. Cousins, aunts, uncles, I don't dabble in that type of stuff. And my whole thing was I'm going to figure it out for myself, in a selfish way. And it was in a negative point of view. So my whole thing was I'ma figure out as much as I can to stay alive as long as I can because n***** like me get killed. Cause that's what my grandfather told me before he died is, "N***** like you get killed." And I've only heard him say one curse word in my whole life and it was that one
KELLEY: What do you mean "like you?"
STAPLES: I don't know what that means. But I tried to make sure that I was by myself. Like, from the ground — I been from my neighborhood for a very long time. I don't kick it with a lot of my people. And they love me to death; I come when I come. I've never fell into the "We're dressing like this right now let's do this," cause I don't trust people. Because people don't control their self. They don't control what they think. And I don't control what I think to a large — a lot of things I think are based off of my emotions and things that I've seen. That's not even controlling them, in a sense. But people are controlled by the words of others and the actions of others
If someone tells you that this wall is pink and you know it's not, for the right person, if you're told that enough, you're going to start to believe it yourself, based off the need of acceptance. And I never needed that. It's like, "This is that. This is that." I don't care. And that hurt me more than it's ever helped me. Trust me. More than it ever helped me it's hurt me. But, I mean, things happen
KELLEY: Why? Cause it separates you from people?
STAPLES: Yeah. I didn't want to listen to anybody. But my question is, I'm sitting right here right now, but should I have?
KELLEY: What do you mean?
STAPLES: Should I have to listened to him? Cause I wouldn't be right here if I did
MUHAMMAD: That's why I say —
KELLEY: Exactly
STAPLES: But this is my question. A majority of people don't get here
SMYTH: Correct
STAPLES: And it's not about me at the end of the day. I mean, it never will be. So this is how I look at life. I run my f****** gun. That's life. You have to deal with whatever you deal with long enough to stay alive, and then it'll work out. That's for everybody. You just have to wait and go through whatever you go through for the right amount of time until you could figure it out. And that's what it really comes down to, no matter who you are. Cause you can miss those opportunities by not paying attention and by giving up. Cause it's — and it's not fair. But it's not supposed to be
But I don't — no, I never looked up to anybody or listened to anybody's words. I know who's who. That's a lot of things. People don't know who's who. I know exactly who's who. I might not act like I do, but I know everyone. I can tell. You can tell a lot about somebody by the way they shake your hand and look at you. And that's all you need to know. So I've never had anyone to look up to, cause why would I? Look where I come from. Everyone's pretending they're not sad
MUHAMMAD: It's not necessarily about having someone to look up to. I think that's great. But what I'm saying is just have someone to just show you that there's another side of the world that may not be revealed to you
STAPLES: But what you have to understand is that a majority of those people don't know. Majority of people don't know there's another side of the world
MUHAMMAD: Well, I know that
STAPLES: But you gotta think about the way that this world is set up. You have to pay a lot of money to catch a flight. You have to pay for a passport to get out of this country. You gotta pay to get on the bus. So if you can't pay for them four, five bus rides it's gon' take to get out of the city, how are you gon' know what else is out there? I'm talking before — this is before the Internet. Before Twitter, Tumblr. We had MySpace when I was already in high school. It's too late by then
VINCE STAPLES: How you doing, man?
MUHAMMAD: Good, man. Look — it's funny what you just did, cause — I'm going to fall in right now and say it — we been trying to get you here for two years
FRANNIE KELLEY: That's true
STAPLES: That makes no sense
MUHAMMAD: It makes perfect sense
STAPLES: I saw you in the last years I been here
MUHAMMAD: You came with Earl
KELLEY: Yeah. We wanted you solo
MUHAMMAD: But we wanted you solo. And I think that was — was that before Earl?
KELLEY: It was
MUHAMMAD: It was before Earl. So, you know, your manager's a good, long-time friend of mine. I did give him the press and, to speak up for him, he had a plan already. He explained that to me, and I respect his business, so I was like, "Cool." But I didn't think it would take two years to get you into the seat
But I will say you guys gave us First Listen, so that's a hell of a thank you
STAPLES: That was solely based off of you. I'm not playing. At all. We were in the office and Gabe was like, "Yeah, we're going to do this NPR First Listen thing." I was like, "Isn't that where Ali works?" They was like, "Yeah." And I said, "Alright."
MUHAMMAD: Thank you. That — well, I was just sitting around, watching all the other interviews go down. I was like, "OK. There has to be a reason." And that's a great — thank you
STAPLES: Don't thank me. I just — they need to thank you
KELLEY: Agreed
But, yeah. It's doing really well. Like, traffic-wise and engagement-wise and everything, so thank you
STAPLES: Yeah, it's great, man. I had a spike in pre-sales
KELLEY: Yeah, that's that NPR bump
STAPLES: NPR bump
KELLEY: It's real
STAPLES: Spike in any sales is crazy
KELLEY: I would like to start with Corey, actually, if that's possible. I read an interview with you where you said that you weren't even taking rapping seriously until you met him?
STAPLES: I mean, not really. It was like, after. I didn't really care when I met him either. It was after certain things unfolded. He was definitely the stepping stone as far as how — that led to that path. But I knew Corey for about year before I cared. Like year and a half before I was like, "Alright. I'ma do this." Then after two years, I was like, "Alright. I'ma stop playing."
KELLEY: OK. But how did you come to meet, then?
STAPLES: I was just around. A few people I was working with at the time — the most important would be Michael Uzowuru, great friend of mine — we were in the right place right time kind of situation. And one of Michael's, I guess, collaborators was telling Corey that he should work with Michael, and Corey started working with both of us at that point in time. And I kind of kept it going
KELLEY: And when you were talking to Corey about Vince, what was the — how did he describe him?
MUHAMMAD: How did I describe him?
KELLEY: No, how did Corey describe him to you?
MUHAMMAD: He didn't really. I just knew about Vince, and I knew that he was repping him. So I just wanted to have the conversation. He was really excited about Vince. And we talked about production as well, and he was saying that Vince was very specific and had a particular sound and an idea of what he wanted to do. And so that was as most as the conversation went on that
KELLEY: Yeah, you called me from the studio
MUHAMMAD: Yeah
KELLEY: I think you stepped outside and you were like, "Book this guy." And I was like, "I have been trying."
STAPLES: I'm sorry about that. It's not my fault
MUHAMMAD: No. It's —
STAPLES: I'm very very — when it's outside the numbers – you know, everyone around me tells me to make sure I don't spend my money, make sure nobody takes my money. So, you know, besides that, I have no mind for business at all when it comes to certain things. Like, I don't even have to pay attention to that stuff. I got — I'm lucky. Courtni and Corey call me in the morning like, "Hey, make sure you're here at this time."
MUHAMMAD: I find that — well, after being in it for so long, that there's two sides to that. That's a great thing, from a creative perspective, and from really having your own sort of landscape of where you want to go and what you want to do. And so you can really kind of have the experience, feel it out, know what you want to change, and not have all these other additional things you have to worry about. So —
STAPLES: Yeah, but you have to have the right people in place for that to work out cause —
MUHAMMAD: That's what I'm saying
STAPLES: — if you don't got the right people in place, you can, you know, get Little Richard-ed and all of those different things
MUHAMMAD: Well, it's two sides. Cause even in having the right people, then, at some times — if you leave it so much to them, at some point, there may be aspects that you miss out on, and it's not that they're not trying to do their thing — they are — but actually then —
STAPLES: They might not know. It's all about guidance. You gotta — teamwork makes the situation work
MUHAMMAD: You in good company. But you know that
STAPLES: Yeah, I be chilling, man
KELLEY: How do you know Corey? Why are you guys friends?
MUHAMMAD: Because of De La Soul
KELLEY: Can you tell why?
MUHAMMAD: I don't know. Can we — we have to bring Corey in. I feel kind of — like, we're talking about the man and he's just —
KELLEY: Making faces
MUHAMMAD: — having to take whatever is spoken on this microphone right now
KELLEY: Is he coming in?
MUHAMMAD: Yeah, he is
KELLEY: OK, cool
COREY SMYTH: It's so quiet in here
KELLEY: Cozy. It's another word for it. I don't think that mic is on, so if you guys could share
SMYTH: I'll sit next to Vince
KELLEY: Cool
SMYTH: Mr. Staples
KELLEY: Oh, it's on
STAPLES: It's on
KELLEY: You could be there
SMYTH: OK. At my own station. Hey, Ali
MUHAMMAD: What's up, Corey?
SMYTH: I'm good, man. I'm in a good space. Very happy to see you and happy to see that Vince is here. This has been good, man. It's been a long haul, but we're arriving
KELLEY: That's what it feels like
STAPLES: I'm just hanging out
SMYTH: He's hanging out at the right places, though. That's the best part
KELLEY: There's air conditioning, at least. So tell the story of how you guys started —
SMYTH: Met?
KELLEY: Yeah
SMYTH: I met Ali when I started working with De La Soul. Yeah. I was literally – what's that '90? Stakes Is High. Yeah. Stakes Is High album. Platinum Island. Right? Platinum. Right next door to Rawkus back in the day. I started managing De La Soul right around that time, and I was brought into the fold, through a very unique meeting. A Native Tongue meeting. I'll never forget that. A very big —
MUHAMMAD: Oh my god. Can we excuse Mr. Smyth?
SMYTH: A Native Tongue meeting, actually. But yeah, that was — it was very great. It was great to witness that moment
MUHAMMAD: Oh my god. I forgot about that
KELLEY: Wait. Why are you shaking your head? Have you heard this story?
STAPLES: I don't know what Native Tongue is. I know what De La Soul is because ofMF DOOM and Good Burger
KELLEY: OK
STAPLES: And Nike SB
MUHAMMAD: Wow
SMYTH: Yeah
KELLEY: So what was this meeting?
SMYTH: Oh, it's just, you know — cats are trying to make things happen at that point in time
KELLEY: Don't look at me like that
SMYTH: Then some things happened and some things didn't. But it was a big meeting. I'll never forget it
MUHAMMAD: I just forget things. So sometimes it's comforting forgetting things, and then —
SMYTH: Then Corey comes and brings it back up
MUHAMMAD: Like, I totally forgot about that meeting, and I'm like — because now he just opened up a whole memory bank over here that was just like, "Cool. We dealt with it." And now I'm like, "Oh, yeah. That was a very important meeting."
SMYTH: Yeah, it was crazy
KELLEY: Am I supposed to know what happened in this meeting?
MUHAMMAD: No one is
SMYTH: No one is. Yeah, I was about to say. No one's supposed to know what happened in that meeting. But the fact that I think that we were all young — that was the best thing for me. And I always tell Vince, him having me at this age versus the age I was there, I would've been different in that meeting. Like, I was kind of in awe, because I'm fans of all of them. But, you know, people are just trying to organize lives and business in a structure that's not really a structure at that moment, and it's unique
And part of the conversation earlier was about the creative and how Vince feels very free to be creative, which is a great thing, especially at 21, about to be 22. But there's a business side to it as Ali was saying that you have to start thinking about at some point in time. And he's there. He doesn't know he thinks about it that way cause he's very very particular about everything, so he's not going to ever be tilted, but that meeting was about creative with business
And it was just — I don't think the business ever grew. The Native Tongue business didn't grow, and it could've. It could've been something phenomenal. The fact that a 21-year-old kid who makes great music knows about the individuals but doesn't know about the collective speaks to the business that didn't happen
KELLEY: True
MUHAMMAD: My first conversation with you, I got the sense that you knew exactly what you were doing, and —
STAPLES: I didn't though. That's the crazy part about it
MUHAMMAD: Well, from the sense that — I think creatively you did. Creatively speaking, you gave me that impression, and very strong. And it seemed like you had certain ideas as to where you wanted to go. And maybe you don't see that, but I saw that clearly
STAPLES: How many years ago was that?
MUHAMMAD: Two
STAPLES: I had no idea what I was doing
KELLEY: Did you know what you didn't want to do though?
STAPLES: Yeah. Now see, that — I know what I didn't want to do, but I had no idea what I was doing
KELLEY: That's enough
STAPLES: I figured that out, like — what? October? Yeah, like September
KELLEY: Really?
STAPLES: I'm dead — I'm so serious
KELLEY: Why? Do you remember that moment?
STAPLES: Yeah
KELLEY: What happened?
STAPLES: You know how you looking for something you don't know what it is?
KELLEY: Mm-hmm
STAPLES: We found it
SMYTH: Mm-hmm
STAPLES: So, "Oh, that's — there it goes."
KELLEY: What was it?
STAPLES: It was in Toronto, and we met Hagler and he had the "Blue Suede" beat. I was like, "Oh, there it goes." And I was like, "We'll be done in like a week." And Corey's like, "You sure?" I was like, "Yeah." And then we were done in a week
YouTube
SMYTH: But knowing what you don't like is knowing what you kind of like, on the low
STAPLES: Yeah, now that you said that, I understand what you mean
SMYTH: It's the yin and yang
STAPLES: For sure didn't know what I was doing though. I wasn't really thinking about it at that time. I was trying to figure out other things. But, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense
KELLEY: What were trying to figure out?
STAPLES: Life, man. Life is the important part. This isn't the important part. The music will never matter without life. So life is the important part. That's the priority, and then music comes second. And then third comes the connection to music, and, you know, money and fame and fortune and notoriety is like 15th on that list or 20th or something, to me. That's the last thing I care about
KELLEY: But don't you think that life stuff — or have you noticed that when the life stuff gets correct, the music gets better?
STAPLES: No, cause music's never better or worse. It's just what it is at that time
KELLEY: OK
STAPLES: I don't think anything's good or bad. I refuse to label anything as good or bad cause early Vince Staples music, which I will never listen to, which I think is horrible. And I always thought that s*** was trash. And I was being lazy and taking advantage of situations and being like, "Hey, I can be over here and hang out and stay out of trouble if I just make some songs. OK, what's this song about? What's this beat called? OK. There you go. Leave me alone. I'm over here." That was the whole purpose of certain things at first. Thinking I was smarter than the cycle of things
But, I mean, if life is really really bad, does that mean the music's going to be really bad? If life's really really good, does that mean the music is really good? No. Some people make their best music when life is horrible. Some people lose sense of what their music was when their life starts to get better
MUHAMMAD: Just to build on this point, cause I had something written down, I wanted to give you some words: envy, hoarding, stick-ups, dubious, orphan, solitude — or you can trade that for deserted — famine, anger in the nation, and penitentiary maternity wards. What's good?
STAPLES: It all depends on the perspective. Cause if the penitentiary is wrong in the first place, then the maternity ward is pointless. But if the penitentiary is potentially good, then, of course, "They can have kids in here and it's safe and it's sanitary. That's a good thing." But why are they in there in the first place? So it could be good or bad
Stick-ups. OK. Does that person really need that money? Do you really need that money? Are their kids going to be OK if you take from them? Are your kids going to be OK if you don't take from them? It's all about — it's about which angle you look at things from. Nothing really good or bad. At the end of the day, we make all this stuff up
MUHAMMAD: I ask you those things because I feel that some of your music talks about just the embodiment of just those words, and it makes me wonder — and I keep landing to, "What's good?" So I like hearing you say you don't look at it as things are bad, things are good
STAPLES: It's all about circumstances. Circumstances dictate your set of values, your set of morals. So that's really what it comes down to. Cause with circumstances changes the way you look at things. Cause that's — that defines everything
MUHAMMAD: So with regards to the music then, the music at one point in time was a place where you can get an education. You can be inspired. You can be taught how to look at your life, regardless of the surroundings, being challenged or not, that you can have a sense of pride in yourself. And there seems to be kind of a feeling that's lost in the music. And I get the sense that you want to bring back something where people can really be taught from your music. Am I wrong?
STAPLES: No, that makes sense. That definitely makes sense. It's just — I mean, it all depends how you look at it. Like, that's definitely not what music is about anymore, at least from the way I do it. Like, the people in my genre, whatever they call those things now, everybody now getting some money and getting some attention. That's really what it's about for basically everybody
MUHAMMAD: What's it about for you?
STAPLES: I don't even know what it's about
MUHAMMAD: C'mon Vince
STAPLES: I'm serious. I will tell you — I literally don't think about those things. I don't think about those things. It's like, I'm here already. That's what I'ma do. I'ma stop? Quit? I don't like this stuff 90% of the time. Ask him. I do not have fun with this stuff. Cause you don't get — I like life
MUHAMMAD: Is there a purpose?
STAPLES: Everybody has a purpose. It's not up to you to define that though. So I'm figuring out as — we don't know. We know nothing. We don't know anything. We only know what we're told. The fact we all got convinced that money means something, just — it means everybody stupid, to me. Period. We're all stupid. Cause we let somebody make something and say, "This is what means everything." So what makes you think that we know about the world that's outside of us or what our life — we're not even thinking about life. We're paying taxes. For what? Why? Why do any of these things exist? You make a house to sell it, to get money that somebody makes in a office somewhere
MUHAMMAD: These are good questions. Good points
STAPLES: If you take money out of everything — if there's no such thing as money, what changes? We still have the animals to make the food. We still have the resources to build these things. We still have what we need to make these sciences and all this other type of stuff. This stuff is made up
MUHAMMAD: Nothing changes, I think, except for the higher consciousness of mankind, which we keep missing because we get stumped by that thing we focused on that that we think we supposed to be focused on. We're not reaching our higher —
STAPLES: So the fact that money and being popular and being better than the next person is what this world is based on — I don't — who cares? Like, if I don't — who cares about anything, if you're going to be 100% honest? No. You care about what benefits you the most. No matter what you do. But that's the way that we're made, and that's the way we were raised up, is to care about what benefits us the most. So when it comes to thinking of a — I don't — I try not to think about stuff like that. Cause it goes against what I know
MUHAMMAD: I respect that
STAPLES: Cause I know none of this matters at the end of the day. I know 90% — not even 90%. Probably, I want to say — it's a different time — half the people that listen to your music listen to it to say they listen to your music. For no other reason. To say, "Oh yeah, I like this." But why? What does it do for you? Half the people that buy your music do it to support you; half do it to say they did it so they're not deemed stealing, so they feel better about themselves; and most of the people that do listen your music steal it, but they love you to death. That doesn't make any sense to me. This whole ordeal doesn't make any sense to me
I read an article today that said "Vince Staples blah blah. While being on Def Jam Records, one must try to make radio records, and we see his two attempts on this song and that song." What does that even mean? What is the radio? That's somebody else playing a song. Why do you have to try to do that? What kind of sense does that make? That makes no sense
MUHAMMAD: Yeah, people just throw they own spin in life and stuff —
STAPLES: Which is why —
MUHAMMAD: — but that's not connected or based off of anything real
STAPLES: Exactly
MUHAMMAD: And that's what you're saying
STAPLES: What I'm saying is nothing matters at the end of the day to 90% of the people that walk the face of this earth. That's why you have the special ones, and they're crazy. When you think about somebody who's — it's funny. I was talking to — my girl's brother's autistic. And my brother, he's been on bed rest for probably about like 16, 17 — the majority of my life. And she was talking about mentally challenged people and how people feel bad for them. That's just always funny to me
Like, why do you feel bad for them? They don't have to deal with any of this s***. They're happy. They don't know about any of the things we have to deal with. They're living their life, smile on their face. When they're sad, they're sad; when they're happy, they're happy. It's often outweighed by the happiness. Why do we — we should feel bad for us
MUHAMMAD: No doubt
STAPLES: But it's a sense of — we've been so — we so lost. We don't know what any of this stuff means. And we don't even care to find out
MUHAMMAD: Some of us don't. I care
STAPLES: But you gotta think about it. Majority rules. That's the life that we set up here. That's why we vote
MUHAMMAD: You got a point, based off that perspective. The majority that does rule doesn't rule me, so that's my perspective
STAPLES: Exactly. But look — it's back to what you say about right or wrong. It's right; it's wrong, the reality. The fact that we even dabble in right or wrong is wrong in the first place. But is it wrong, cause it brings order. Is order right? Are we supposed to have order? And why does no one focus on the reality of the situation?
If you look at the news, all these people dying and how things are happening, it's never based on the reality of the situation. It's based on what people think are right and wrong. All that is based on opinion. When things are based on opinion, the popular opinion wins. That's what it's called the popular opinion. So in that sense, we're always going to be f*****. Cause all you need to do — Hitler got people to think he was right
MUHAMMAD: Absolutely
STAPLES: Do you think — no one thought that they were wrong. That's the crazy part about — no one thought that they were wrong. The terrorists that handled 9/11, the Boston bombing, these people never think they're wrong. We don't think we're wrong when we go blow up elementary schools looking for one person, to spare lives of soldiers. So we throw a bomb in a school because somebody's hiding in it. Not thinking about the lives of those people that — but it's right in our — it's right to us. But it's wrong to them. What kind of sense does that s*** make?
MUHAMMAD: It doesn't make sense, but at the same time, these things, I think, are done to make us reflect. And if you take a moment to reflect, that's all you need to then start the questioning to try to be on that journey to figure out what the purpose is
STAPLES: OK. But —
MUHAMMAD: But most people don't take that moment
STAPLES: Because when do you have that moment?
MUHAMMAD: Well, nowadays, yeah. In this century, with all this —
STAPLES: It's not even that. It's past that. Before that. You wake up. You see your mom go to work. You go to school. You come home. You hate your life some more. You go back to school. Your friend has a birthday party. His house is bigger than yours. Now he can never come to your house, cause you live in the back of your aunt's house, across the street from the oil refinery in a gang-infested neighborhood where everyone is related to you. So you're embarrassed about that. You go home, do your homework
Your mom comes home, makes nothing, tries to figure out how to make you not realize that you're poor. Because where I live at, the state that I live at, an apartment in a bad neighborhood is $800, $900 a month, for one bedroom. That's a lot of money if you getting paid minimum wage. But your kid has to have the nice shoes cause he has to deal with the other kids, or he gotta go to the school where they have the uniforms. But you have to pay for that, too, so you're not really running from anything
So you're spending your whole life trying to catch up to something that you don't know why you're chasing and trying to disguise your kids from something that they already noticed, based on their own interactions. That's the beginning of life. That's before you have bills — as a kid — and before you have to pay taxes. That's before you're elderly and you can't take care of your own self. So my question is, with all these things in your way before the phones, before interactions with other people that could be negative, you trying to scramble for no apparent reason. When do you have time to sit down and think? This is before the Internet
MUHAMMAD: I think that depends on — based off of that environment you describe, that depends on who else is around you in that environment. Because if it's just completely like that, then you don't have time. But if you have someone who can just say, "You know what? Let me just pull you over here and talk to you," even if I talk to you for five minutes to give you a vision of the world that doesn't exist in front of you. It's not tangible to you, but just enough to open up your mind to that. If you don't have that, then you're going to be behind, but if you have someone to do that, then your journey then shifts, and you make the time. You'll find the time
STAPLES: That's less than the half —
SMYTH: A majority of the kids don't get that. So that's —
STAPLES: That's not real. You're supposed to get that in school, but when you open up that history book, you're a slave
SMYTH: You're supposed to just get that in general, in life
MUHAMMAD: Before school
SMYTH: Yeah, before school
STAPLES: Yeah, but that's not happening
SMYTH: Correct
STAPLES: It's like I said, it's right, wrong, reality — the reality of the situation is —
MUHAMMAD: Which brings me to —
SMYTH: Your record
MUHAMMAD: Your record. When you have a song like "Lift Me Up," who are you talking to?
KELLEY: Wait. Can I just clarify one thing? Did you or did you not have that person?
STAPLES: Never in my life
KELLEY: So he did it without that person
SMYTH: No, he had those people. I mean, listen. I'm not going to try to disagree with him in his interview, but there are people that — he pays attention. Whether they were speaking directly to him? He pays enough attention that he was able to grab a lot more. I always say — I said to my mother, I was like, "Vince is a dropout of high school. You would never tell me if he went through — if someone had taken the time at those formative years to give him that type of attention, where he would've been." I'm glad he's here, cause it's all with purpose. But he clearly could've done anything with the proper focus
MUHAMMAD: I think his purpose was — how do I say this? You're supposed — your journey, whatever it is, it's a full purpose
SMYTH: Completely
MUHAMMAD: And it will be fulfilled. And when I first met you, I felt that. And even something that you said in one of your other interviews, you said you don't want to be rapping when you're 45. And based off of your words, I felt that you wanted to have a relationship and an influence with children for the next generation of people who didn't have what you did not have. Likewise, where you can offer them that thing that you did not have. So that gave me a sense that somewhere in your journey there was anointing. So when you say you didn't have that, probably didn't, but something along the line, I think, planted a seed in giving you a vision
STAPLES: And I'ma tell you what that was. At a very young age, I could look at people and tell that everyone was, in a sense, worthless in their own mind. And you couldn't trust anyone. No one was good. My mom wasn't good. My dad wasn't good. My grandmother wasn't good. My grandfather was good to me, but if you ask around, he done some stuff. No one's good or bad. And then I understood it was a trick. I knew we was being f****** tricked. At a young age
So it's like, I didn't f*** with anybody. I don't talk to any of my family members, and I've never liked them. Cousins, aunts, uncles, I don't dabble in that type of stuff. And my whole thing was I'm going to figure it out for myself, in a selfish way. And it was in a negative point of view. So my whole thing was I'ma figure out as much as I can to stay alive as long as I can because n***** like me get killed. Cause that's what my grandfather told me before he died is, "N***** like you get killed." And I've only heard him say one curse word in my whole life and it was that one
KELLEY: What do you mean "like you?"
STAPLES: I don't know what that means. But I tried to make sure that I was by myself. Like, from the ground — I been from my neighborhood for a very long time. I don't kick it with a lot of my people. And they love me to death; I come when I come. I've never fell into the "We're dressing like this right now let's do this," cause I don't trust people. Because people don't control their self. They don't control what they think. And I don't control what I think to a large — a lot of things I think are based off of my emotions and things that I've seen. That's not even controlling them, in a sense. But people are controlled by the words of others and the actions of others
If someone tells you that this wall is pink and you know it's not, for the right person, if you're told that enough, you're going to start to believe it yourself, based off the need of acceptance. And I never needed that. It's like, "This is that. This is that." I don't care. And that hurt me more than it's ever helped me. Trust me. More than it ever helped me it's hurt me. But, I mean, things happen
KELLEY: Why? Cause it separates you from people?
STAPLES: Yeah. I didn't want to listen to anybody. But my question is, I'm sitting right here right now, but should I have?
KELLEY: What do you mean?
STAPLES: Should I have to listened to him? Cause I wouldn't be right here if I did
MUHAMMAD: That's why I say —
KELLEY: Exactly
STAPLES: But this is my question. A majority of people don't get here
SMYTH: Correct
STAPLES: And it's not about me at the end of the day. I mean, it never will be. So this is how I look at life. I run my f****** gun. That's life. You have to deal with whatever you deal with long enough to stay alive, and then it'll work out. That's for everybody. You just have to wait and go through whatever you go through for the right amount of time until you could figure it out. And that's what it really comes down to, no matter who you are. Cause you can miss those opportunities by not paying attention and by giving up. Cause it's — and it's not fair. But it's not supposed to be
But I don't — no, I never looked up to anybody or listened to anybody's words. I know who's who. That's a lot of things. People don't know who's who. I know exactly who's who. I might not act like I do, but I know everyone. I can tell. You can tell a lot about somebody by the way they shake your hand and look at you. And that's all you need to know. So I've never had anyone to look up to, cause why would I? Look where I come from. Everyone's pretending they're not sad
MUHAMMAD: It's not necessarily about having someone to look up to. I think that's great. But what I'm saying is just have someone to just show you that there's another side of the world that may not be revealed to you
STAPLES: But what you have to understand is that a majority of those people don't know. Majority of people don't know there's another side of the world
MUHAMMAD: Well, I know that
STAPLES: But you gotta think about the way that this world is set up. You have to pay a lot of money to catch a flight. You have to pay for a passport to get out of this country. You gotta pay to get on the bus. So if you can't pay for them four, five bus rides it's gon' take to get out of the city, how are you gon' know what else is out there? I'm talking before — this is before the Internet. Before Twitter, Tumblr. We had MySpace when I was already in high school. It's too late by then
Comments (0)
The minimum comment length is 50 characters.
Information
Users of Guests are not allowed to comment this publication.
There are no comments yet. You can be the first!